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July 31, 2025
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PETER STEFANOVIC: Canada has declared this morning it intends to officially recognise a state of Palestine at the UN General Assembly. And as the Treasurer just said on the program, it's a matter of time before we do the same. Joining us live now, the Shadow Finance Minister, James Paterson. James, good to see you this morning, so a bit to ask you in this space now. So, firstly, as I mentioned, Canada becomes the next nation to fall in line here. Let's just start off with your reaction to that.
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Obviously, Pete, it's not a matter for me to comment on Canadian foreign policy. That's a matter for the Canadian government. But I'm very happy to give you my view on Australian foreign policy, and that is that I do not support the premature recognition of a Palestinian state before the conclusion of a peace process that establishes two states of Israel and Palestine. And the reason for that is if you were to recognise a Palestinian state today, as the Albanese government is leaning towards doing, you would be recognising a state which is in part governed by a terrorist organization, which is in part governed by an organisation which continues to hold 50 Israelis hostage, which has sworn the destruction of the state of Israel and the people in it, which has caused death and devastation for the people of Gaza. And that's before we even get to the issues in the West Bank with the Palestinian Authority, which hasn't held an election for 20 years, which is deeply corrupt, which previously paid money to the families of suicide bombers after they blew themselves up and killed Israelis, which promotes hatred against Israel, which doesn't recognise Israel's right to exist. I mean, what state exactly would Australia be recognising?
PETER STEFANOVIC: So as Mark Carney explained a little bit earlier, James, there are conditions, and the other leaders have said the same, particularly Keir Starmer, but Mark Carney said there's got to be demilitarisation, there can't be any role for Hamas, hostages have to be returned. Does that answer your questions at all?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, if those are the preconditions, then, frankly, I think it's going to be a very long time before any state can recognise a Palestinian state, Australia included, because Hamas has shown no interest in returning the hostages, certainly no interest in demilitarising or giving up its control over Gaza. In fact, they're busy trying to build potential control over the West Bank. They want to be the governing authority for all Palestinians, not just Palestinians in Gaza. So if those preconditions are sincere and genuine and upheld by the Australian government, then I can't see any time in the foreseeable future that a Palestinian state is recognised by the Australian Government.
PETER STEFANOVIC: Momentum, though, given what's happened with the UK and France earlier, momentum is clearly building here. Does it seem inevitable that other countries, including ours, will join the line and declare a state of Palestine?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, I don't think we should decide Australia's foreign policy according to some artificial measure of momentum or the international zeitgeist. We should decide it consistent with our national interest and the principles which the Australian government has upheld on a bipartisan basis for decades, which is that, of course, we want two states. Of course, we support peace between the Palestinians and the Israelis, but we should only recognise that Palestinian state after peace has been agreed and achieved, because otherwise you lose all leverage over the Palestinian Authority. They desperately want to achieve this international recognition, and they would be willing to do some things in exchange for that, including forswearing their desire to destroy the State of Israel, in exchange for it. But if you hand over that recognition, you have no further leverage to expect them to negotiate over.
PETER STEFANOVIC: Are you feeling for Israel here, James, I mean, all this increased pressure that it's under? But up until this point, it hasn't given an inch.
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, actually, I think the Israelis have been negotiating in good faith with American partners and other regional players, including Egypt and Qatar.
PETER STEFANOVIC: I mean, in terms of resisting all this pressure, is what I meant.
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, Israel's foreign policy is a matter for Israel as well, but I support their objective of removing Hamas from Gaza, and I support their objective of freeing the hostages. Any self-respecting liberal democracy would do the same thing in the same circumstances. But at the same time, I do agree that there is very genuine suffering of the people of Gaza, and it is deeply concerning to see the images that have come out of Gaza, particularly in recent weeks. And I do think Israel has an obligation to ensure the people of Gaza are fed.
PETER STEFANOVIC: Yeah, and I'm not even sure that you can answer this question. It just came to me, you know, in the space of a couple of minutes. I mean, I don't think anyone's got the answer. It's why we're still in all of this. But what does a state of Palestine even look like? If it has its own state, what does that even look like that would take years to work out?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, I'm really finding it difficult to answer that question as well, Pete, because no one has really articulated that in a cogent or coherent way. Certainly, the Prime Minister has not articulated that. He and the Foreign Minister have moved forward with the possible recognition of a Palestinian state, with no idea of how that would work. Would there be elections in this Palestinian state? Would Hamas be allowed to contest those elections? How would they be free or fair? How would security or policing be guaranteed? How would we ensure that the terror tunnels get filled in and that they don't just launch another attack on the state of Israel,
kidnapping, raping, and murdering thousands more Jews, as they have promised to do? I mean, we should take them at their word. They want the destruction of the state of Israel, and no one who vows the destruction of another state deserves recognition of their own state.
PETER STEFANOVIC: I mean, even though they say that Hamas can't play a role in any future government, if this state is declared, James, does Hamas win? Do they win?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, frankly, these are motherhood statements from the Albanese government, and particularly from the foreign minister, Penny Wong. She often says, well, we've said Hamas has no role. Well, how does the Foreign Minister think that should be achieved? What is the mechanism to ensure that Hamas wouldn't have a role? The only mechanism to remove Hamas from power is the Israeli Defence Force. And the Foreign Minister has been opposed to the Israeli Defence Force taking the action that's necessary to remove Hamas from power. And so I really think that the Australian government's position here is incoherent and inconsistent. And it is driven, let's be clear, by domestic political considerations. We know there's enormous pressure on the Labor backbench, from Labor Party branch members, from some unions, from the pro-Palestinian movement in Australia, which is bending the will of this government and has forced it away from historically held bipartisan positions on foreign policy. And I think that reflects very badly on them.
PETER STEFANOVIC: All right, we'll leave it there, but the Shadow Finance Minister, James Paterson, good to have you with us today. Appreciate it. We'll chat again soon.
ENDS