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December 19, 2025
JUSTIN SMITH: I am going to put those things to James Paterson, who is a Liberal Senator for Victoria. He's on the phone. Senator, thank you very much for your time.
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Good morning, Justin.
JUSTIN SMITH: Just before we get to Aaron's point that it won't make a difference, we've been asking the question since 8:30 this morning, which is how did our leaders go this week? Has it been too politicised? What happened on Sunday became too politicised? I want to play this here. This is Sussan Ley after the massacre.
[CLIP START]
THE HON SUSSAN LEY: Antisemitism in Australia has been left to fester. We've seen a clear failure to keep Jewish Australians safe. We've seen a clear lack of leadership in keeping Jewish Australians safe. We have a government that sees antisemitism as a problem to be managed. Not evil that needs to be eradicated.
[CLIP END]
JUSTIN SMITH: That was the first press conference from the opposition leader. Senator, was the massacre politicised? And if so, was it too early?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Look, views of Sussan and mine are interesting on one level, but more important than the view of a politician, I think, are the views of the Jewish community leadership who've been incredibly vocal this week about their disappointment. Included among them have been religious figures, Rabbis, but also non-partisan community leaders like the Executive Council of Australian Jewry and the New South Wales Board of Deputies, who have spoken very candidly and honestly about how they feel that the warnings that they gave the government over the last two years have not been heeded, how angry they are that more action hasn't happened, how there's been too much delay and too many excuses for not taking this issue more seriously. And they feel vindicated in a terrible and perverse way. This is exactly what they feared would happen. This is exactly what they said would happen, and sadly, it's come to pass.
JUSTIN SMITH: Has there been, though, if there hasn't been politicising of this, has there been a lack of unity?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: I would have liked to see more unity since the most terrible terrorist atrocity we've ever had in our country, but unity requires leadership. And my honest, disappointed view is that we haven't had enough of that from our Prime Minister. I'm sure he is as deeply troubled as we all are by this event, but I think at times his response has been tone deaf, and I think it's been inadequate.
JUSTIN SMITH: Let's have a look at this announcement yesterday from the government. What do you make of it? What detail have you seen? What's your assessment?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Look, I'm concerned mostly that it's too little, too late. Many of these things were recommended by the Prime Minister's hand-picked envoy on anti-Semitism five months ago. And so not only should they have been implemented months ago, but even if they hadn't yet been implemented, they should be ready to go today. We should be able to recall the parliament next week, as the New South Wales Premier is doing, to start legislating these measures. And even at his press conference yesterday, the Prime Minister wasn't able to say that he embraced every single one of the recommendations made by the special envoy, Jillian Segal, and that is disappointing. And in many respects, we just don't have the details of what the government is actually planning to do.
JUSTIN SMITH: I think we were talking to Matt Thistlethwaite before, who is the Assistant Minister for Immigration, who said they are going to be adopting all the recommendations.
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, that's news to me because the special envoy has made a number of recommendations that the Prime Minister did not address yesterday. So, for example, she said that universities that fail to protect Jewish students should have their funding cut. The Prime Minister did not say whether or not they're going to do that. In fact, he said they're going to have a 12 month inquiry led by David Gonski to look at whether or not that should do things like that. I think another 12 month inquiry is the last thing the community needs right now, we need action.
JUSTIN SMITH: Alright, on the announcements that were made yesterday, then and what has been adopted, what difference do you think it is going to make? What concerns do you have?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: I'm hopeful that it will make a difference, but I'm very puzzled by some of the announcements. So, for example, the government said they're going to change the Migration Act to make it easier for the Minister for Home Affairs to cancel people's visas. So, is Tony Burke saying that he would have cancelled more visas over the last couple of years if he had these laws? I mean, as Mike Pezzullo, the former Secretary of the Department of Home Affairs, has pointed out, the Minister already has extremely wide discretion to cancel visas and can do so when he believes someone is a threat to the community. I mean, Tony Burke has cancelled more visas for visiting Israeli politicians than he has for hate preachers. And unless he changes his approach, no new laws will fix that.
JUSTIN SMITH: Alright, so what do you want to see in place then? Because some of the detail is missing and they even admitted to that, that it hasn't been worked out yet. Matt Thistlethwaite said they haven't quite worked out what the threshold is for hate speech. So what will the opposition do?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: The thing that I most want to see from the government is action on the hate preachers and the hate factories which have been allowed to propagate, frankly, evil in our community over the last several years. Places like the Al Madina Dawah Centre, where some of the worst vilification and incitement against the Jewish community has occurred over the last two years, they should have been shut down, and they should've been shut down a long time ago. Organisations like Hizb ut-Tahrir, which is banned in countries like the United Kingdom and Germany but operates freely here, shouldn't be allowed to continue to operate. They are just some of the things I'd like to see out of this.
JUSTIN SMITH: So, on from what the government is doing, to what you would do, you would ban those organisations?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: I think they have to be, and in addition to that, we've said that we want to see more funding for our counter-terrorism response. When ASIO increased the national threat level from possible to probable, there was no additional funding for the AFP or ASIO. We're concerned by the government's policy of the so-called self-managed return of ISIS brides and their families, as if this is a superannuation fund or something. I don't think people who left our country to go and join ISIS should be warmly welcomed back to our country.
JUSTIN SMITH: Could any legislation change what had happened on Sunday?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: The honest answer is it's impossible to say, Justin, we can't say with confidence whether anything could have prevented that. What we can say, though, is that did the government do everything in their power to prevent that? Did they take every possible step? And not just me, but the Jewish community is saying loud and clear that the answer to that is no.
JUSTIN SMITH: We're getting texts through, and this is, you know, there are texts on both sides, but it has been strongly on this kind of sentiment from this person who says, 'I've been sickened and depressed about the politicisation of the horrendous massacre of Jews and their festival of light and love. Mark my words, the opposition will have further blood on their hands.' There has been a concern that the opposition has politicised this too much.
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Look, I've got to say, I think that's a really silly thing to say. I don't think we should use language like that about any politician. I certainly haven't used that language about the government, and I don't think it's appropriate to refer to the opposition that way either. What we are doing is speaking up on behalf of the Jewish community. I spent several hours this week at the Bondi memorial site. And Jewish community members came up to me and said, thank you for speaking up for us. Thank you for giving voice to our concerns. And frankly, many of them said to me, we want you to be even more vocal. We want you be even more critical. Now we've got to find the right balance as politicians in the wake of a terrible tragedy. But I think it is important and in a democracy, it's critical that we have an opposition that holds governments to account when they fail. And sadly, I think the government has failed here.
JUSTIN SMITH: We thank you very much for your time.
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Thank you for having me.
ENDS