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June 2, 2025
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JAYNE AZZOPARDI: Welcome back. Deputy Prime Minister Richard Marles has confirmed Australia is willing to discuss defence spending with the Trump administration despite America's plans to double tariffs on steel and aluminium imports. Joining us to discuss today's headlines is Shadow Finance Minister James Paterson and Political Correspondent at the Age and Sydney Morning Herald, Paul Sakkal. Good morning to you both. James, I'll start with you. On the one hand, the government is asking for relief from tariffs while at the same time trying to resist U.S. calls for more defence spending. How do you think it's handling this kind of tightrope walk?
JAMES PATERSON: Well, not very well so far, but let's see how they go. We should increase defence spending in Australia, but not because an American tells us to, but because it's in our national interest. Because we live in the most dangerous and precarious time since the end of World War II, and right now we're not spending enough to defend ourselves. That's why people like Kim Beazley, the former Labor leader and Defence Minister, have called on us to spend up to 3% of GDP on defence as the Coalition took to the last election. It's one of the policies we took which I'm most proud of, and we should continue to advocate for. Separate to that we have to explain to our American friends that the tariff that they're putting on not only hurts them, it hurts us and our relationship and America's standing in the world, and they should stop it.
JAYNE AZZOPARDI: Do you think Anthony Albanese has been doing a good enough job of sending that message?
JAMES PATERSON: Well, the thing that he hasn't done is go and visit President Trump and have a sit-down meeting with him. That's the only way to do business with President Trump. And it's a bit weird now that this far into President Trump's term, he hasn't yet seen him when most other world leaders have. We're told that he might meet him in Canada on the sidelines of the G7. That would be good. But it would have been even better if he'd done so months and months ago.
JAYNE AZZOPARDI: Okay, Paul, what's your view here? The PM's been using some fairly strong language in standing up for Australia's interests. Is that the best way to handle President Trump?
PAUL SAKKAL: Well, I think what this debate will show, over the weekend, and will show later on this week as it continues on, is that governing is a lot harder than campaigning. During the campaign, it was quite easy for the Prime Minister to be a bit more glib, to be quite hairy-chested and tough in response to Trump in a rhetorical sense. But now he's actually got to go over and meet him, he actually needs to seek that exemption, and he's facing very serious calls from the Coalition, defence experts, and to be in line with other Western leaders in increasing defence spending at the same time when spending pressures are increasing in a bunch of other areas. So it's difficult, and we're yet to see how it will play out when they actually have to make the hard calls on spending in the budget.
JAYNE AZZOPARDI: If they do meet at the G7 and he comes away empty handed, how will that go down?
PAUL SAKKAL: It won't be a great look, but he won't be the only Western leader to get a bad deal from Trump, although Keir Starmer, the UK Prime Minister, recently secured a carve-out for their steel and aluminium tariffs. So that does create a precedent for Australia to get a similar deal.
JAYNE AZZOPARDI: Another issue we want to discuss today is social media. TikTok is firing its first public shot at the Albanese government ahead of Australia's social media ban for children aged under 16. Paul, TikTok's campaign is talking up its so-called educational benefits. Do you think the Prime Minister is likely to back down here?
PAUL SAKKAL: I don't think he will. He's got pretty widespread support, from conservatives in the media to the opposition. James Paterson, who's on the panel, has been keen on this for a long time, as well as just the general public. You see polling numbers, and you find that social media use among kids is a huge problem in families. This goes back, this TikTok campaign, to a decision that the former communications minister, Michelle Rowland, took, where she carved out YouTube without really explaining why YouTube was given that exemption. Seemed like a bit of a vibe call. But I think if you did poll parents, and this is also a bit of a vibe answer from me, I think most parents would agree that YouTube has some more educational value than TikTok.
JAYNE AZZOPARDI: Well, my kids watch a lot of YouTube kids, so I'm hoping that's true. James, the Coalition and you particularly backed these laws in the last Parliament. Do you think the Prime Minister should stand firm? And, you know, it's pretty difficult to make an enemy out of these companies.
JAMES PATERSON: It's really important that the Prime Minister doesn't back down here because TikTok is not a safe place for children, and surely every parent who's seen the effects of these social media platforms would understand and agree with that. There is no educational content on TikTok, and that is not what kids are getting from TikTok. It's a lot of other stuff, frankly, that's not appropriate for them and their age. So I really hope the Prime Minister shows some strength here, doesn't back down to this attempted bullying campaign from TikTok, and makes sure that children are protected from what is a really harmful platform.
JAYNE AZZOPARDI: And finally, just quickly, traditional work wear is becoming a thing of the past with Gen Z corporates adding a creative flair to their office outfits. James, how crazy does fashion get in the Coalition party room?
JAMES PATERSON: Not so crazy, and I think the Australian Senate will probably be one of the last workplaces to experiment that way. You might get a slightly colourful tie, but beyond that, it's pretty conventional.
JAYNE AZZOPARDI: I've definitely seen some crazy things in the Senate, though. Paul, how about journalists in the press gallery? How's your fashion sense?
PAUL SAKKAL: That's coincidental timing. The last couple of Fridays, I've been rolling into work with a suede Birkenstock on. I've had some eyes darting down to my feet as I walk in. But I'm going to keep rolling with it. I suspect James will be less adventurous.
JAYNE AZZOPARDI: Were you wearing socks with your Birks?
PAUL SAKKAL: I was. Thick ones.
JAYNE AZZOPARDI: Amazing. Love it.
PAUL SAKKAL: It's Canberra.
JAYNE AZZOPARDI: It's cold in Canberra, isn't it?
JAMES PATERSON: Wild.
JAYNE AZZOPARDI: Paul and James, thank you very much for your time this morning, Karl.
KARL STEFANOVIC: That shot of James, first thing in the morning, so confronting. How you going, big fella?
JAMES PATERSON: So kind Karl!
KARL STEFANOVIC: You look like my Mum on FaceTime.
JAMES PATERSON: Well, send a camera next time!
KARL STEFANOVIC: That’s so tight, mate. You’re shocking Australia.
ENDS