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Transcripts
July 30, 2025
SALLY SARA: Joining me now is James Paterson, Opposition Front Bencher and Liberal Senator for Victoria. Senator Paterson, welcome back to Radio National Breakfast.
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Good morning, Sally.
SALLY SARA: Before we look at domestic political issues, what do you make of Sir Keir Starmer's announcement overnight that the UK will recognise a Palestinian state in September if Israel fails to make substantial steps towards peace?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: It's not for me to comment on the foreign policy of other countries, but if the Australian government was to make a similar move, I wouldn't agree with it because it would be a significant departure from decades of bipartisan foreign policy in this country. Australia has always argued that a Palestinian state should be the end of an outcome of a peace process, and a two-state solution is what we should be supporting. Premature recognition of a Palestinian state before Hamas has been dismantled, before the Palestinian Authority recognises Israel's right to exist, before they give up their aims of using terrorism to abolish the Israeli state, I think, would be extremely counterproductive.
SALLY SARA: Yesterday, the Opposition Leader, Sussan Ley, declined to say whether the images coming out of Gaza were evidence of starvation. What's your view?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: I think the images coming out of Gaza are obviously distressing. No decent human being wants to see anybody suffering the circumstances as they clearly are in Gaza. And as a supporter of Israel, I support their campaign to remove Hamas and to free the 50 hostages who remain in captivity. But I also expect that, as the military power in control of the region, they do everything they can to make sure that innocent civilians in Gaza are fed.
SALLY SARA: Do you think that widespread starvation is occurring at the moment in Gaza?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: There are certainly credible reports of that. I'm not on the ground and I can't independently assess it, but I think very clearly there is very serious suffering happening in Gaza. I think it's also clear that Hamas is weaponising that for their own aims. Hamas obviously has no regard for the lives of Israelis, but they also have no regard for the lives of Palestinians, and they don't care how many Palestinians die if it damages Israel.
SALLY SARA: So, to be clear, in your view, there is evidence of starvation in Gaza currently?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, there's very clear evidence of people suffering in Gaza. The images are very clear. Hamas, you know, are weaponising and taking advantage of that, I think there's no question of that. But it is very clear there's real suffering occurring.
SALLY SARA: I'm interested, why are you using the term real suffering rather than starvation?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, because I'm not in a position to independently assess the evidence that's coming out of Gaza. I'm not there on the ground and I haven't got the advice to independently access it. And so I'm being cautious about this because Hamas is a terrorist organisation that initiated this conflict on the 7th of October, who still hold 50 Israelis as hostages and has consistently shown no regard for the lives of the Palestinian people, let alone the Israeli people. So while we can all observe the very serious humanitarian situation, we should be careful not to endorse claims that are made by Hamas.
SALLY SARA: But the United Nations itself, the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification platform, it is known as IPC. This is the internationally accepted measure of food situations. It's saying that two out of the three famine thresholds have been reached in Gaza. And the alert follows a May 2025 IPC analysis that projected catastrophic levels of food insecurity. Why do you not take the evidence of this international body, which is tasked with measuring these very kinds of situations exactly such as this?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Sally, I am not disputing the very real and genuine suffering in Gaza, which is very clearly occurring. And I've said it's my expectation of Israel as the military power in effective control in the region that they have an obligation to ensure that the people of Gaza are fed. And I welcome the recent policy changes, which appear to have allowed more aid to get into Gaza. I think that is a welcome thing. And I think Israel, while they pursue their legitimate military objectives to remove Hamas and free the hostages, must also ensure that adequate food, aid and other provisions enter Gaza.
SALLY SARA: Let's move on to domestic politics. Many groups and individuals are getting ready for the government's productivity roundtable. How important do you think the issue of discussing artificial intelligence, or AI, is in looking at potential measures to improve productivity in Australia?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Australia's productivity is in a very dire state. In the last term of Parliament, it went back about a decade to 2016 levels, and that has contributed to falling living standards for Australians. And as the government has recognised, if these trends continue, then Australians will get poorer over time, and so it must be arrested. Artificial intelligence is one of the few positive ways that we have to enhance productivity. It's already been demonstrated in early research and studies that firms that deploy AI, including government departments and agencies, can save time if workers can increase the output of work, increase competitiveness and increase productivity. But I am very concerned by some of the extraordinary demands being made of the government by the union movement to delay or stand in the way of the rollout of artificial intelligence, which I think could only hold Australia back.
SALLY SARA: Do you think that artificial intelligence is going to cost jobs in Australia?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: The best evidence, including that cited by Andrew Leigh, an assistant minister in the Albanese government, is that firms that invest in artificial intelligence actually increase their employment after investing in AI. And I think the much greater risk is that firms hold back from investing in AI, and they lose out to their competitors who deploy it. This campaign from the union movement is very reminiscent of their campaign in the last century against the wide comb in shearing sheds. AI is the wide comb of the 21st century. It's a productivity enhancing measure. But in this country, we banned that technology for 60 years in industrial instruments, because, in the words of the AWU, it was a “repulsive and immoral” tool. I mean, this is a really irrational approach to technology. We should embrace technology and embrace the benefits of it.
SALLY SARA: But isn't the productivity benefit of AI that AI is able to do things perhaps faster and on a larger scale than human beings? In other words, it will replace jobs.
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, the early evidence from firms shows that workers are able to move from lower level tasks, which are taken on by AI, and they're able to perform higher end tasks that human beings are best placed to take that involves reasoning and complex thinking and weighing up different imperatives, dealing with people. They are all things that human beings do best, and lower level tasks, lower level research and drafting tasks are taken over by AI. So what it shows is that workers are more productive, and when workers are more productive, they get paid more, and they earn more, and it's better for our prosperity.
SALLY SARA: Yesterday, you gave an address to the Australian Financial Review's Government Services Summit and said that the Coalition didn't get the tone right when it made its pre-election pledge to cut thousands of federal public service jobs in Canberra. To be clear, is this policy now dead, buried, and gone, or do you think the public service is still too large in your view?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: As Sussan Ley said, all of our policies from the election are up for review, and we will announce new policies before the next election after we've gone through a thorough consultation and review process. We're still very committed to making sure that taxpayers' money is spent well in the public service, that there is no waste and no inefficiency. But very clearly, our policy of reducing the federal public service by 41,000 people was not well received at the election and was one of the reasons for our loss.
SALLY SARA: James Paterson will need to leave it there. Thank you for your time this morning.
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Thank you for having me.
ENDS