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Transcripts
September 15, 2025
RAF EPSTEIN: Someone who has been promoted to the Leadership Group is James Paterson. He's also one of the Liberal Senators for the State of Victoria. Good morning.
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Good morning, Raf.
RAF EPSTEIN: I might, if I can, James Paterson, I'll start with Marie, who called from Charlton, long time Labor voter, wants to vote One Nation, but she's furious with the way your party treated Jacinta Price. Do you want to respond to that?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, Jacinta Nampijinpa Price is a personal friend of mine. We've known each other for almost a decade, and long before she was in Parliament, I was urging her to run for Parliament, and I've been trying to recruit her to the Liberal Party for the best part of a decade. So I'm disappointed that Jacinta is no longer on the front bench, but what Jacinta accepts, and we all understand in politics, is that conventions are really important. Institutionally, I'm someone who's conservative, and I think the Westminster Convention about supporting your leader if you're on the frontbench is something that is not negotiable. Everyone understands that applies to them, and so there really was no alternative after Jacinta failed to support the leader.
RAF EPSTEIN: How do you explain 27% in a news poll? How do you interpret how you got to that?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: I probably didn't need a poll Raf, to know that the last fortnight has been a messy one for the Liberal and National parties, and it is another reminder for all of us in politics that when you spend two weeks being internally focused and talking about yourselves, that you're unlikely to be rewarded for that by the electorate. They want us to be focused on their issues and their concerns, and they want us to be disciplined and united and focused. And that is the burden which I and my colleagues accept and are working on.
RAF EPSTEIN: Are you being distracted by issues around migration and net-zero? Is the conversation around migration, and the conversation around net zero, is that part of why you're at 27%?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: They're completely legitimate public policy issues, and Australians have concerns about those issues that need to be addressed by mainstream political parties, and we've got to find a way to do that. But how we talk about it is very important. And so for me, I would always say, it's totally acceptable and appropriate to talk about the number of people coming to our country and whether or not the pace is sustainable and whether our investment in housing and infrastructure is matching the rate of people coming in. But it is unwise and inappropriate to ever talk about the components of that migration, particularly on their nationality or their race or religion. That is not something that we've ever encouraged or tolerated in Australian politics, and we should not do.
RAF EPSTEIN: I mean, there are certainly people in the Liberal Party who want to keep using that phrase mass migration. That's seen by many as a sort of a far right term. There are clearly people in your party who want to drop net zero. Are you worried your party's moving away from the mainstream?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, we have to have these debates internally after a very significant electoral defeat, the worst in the 80-year history of the Liberal Party, and we have the time to do that to get it right, but it's critical that we do that in a way that's measured, that's calm, that's focused, that uses the internal processes of the party to determine our positions, and then we demonstrate that we are united and we're disciplined in prosecuting those issues on behalf of the Australian people. And if we do it in a way that is not strategic, that's not planned, that is not targeted, then we will be marked down for that.
RAF EPSTEIN: Can you scrap net zero, which I think Tony Abbott's government signed up to in Paris? I think that's right. Can you scrape net zero and still win government?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, I'm not going to canvass my views publicly on that issue because I'm a member of the Shadow Cabinet, and that means I'll have an opportunity to have a say through our internal processes, and I will do that. But speaking broadly, Raf, I think there's actually a high degree of unanimity within the Coalition that, yes, emissions reductions are important and we do have obligations that we have to meet, but it is also important that this transition is managed in a way that doesn't have adverse implications for our country, particularly for our international competitiveness, particularly for people's electricity prices particularly for people in rural and regional Australia who are dealing with the brunt of the rollout of renewable energy which has to be done in a way that maintains social licence. And at the moment, I don't think Labor is executing that transition well at all. I think Australians are seeing the consequences of a badly managed transition, and we've got to put forward an alternative plan that manages it better.
RAF EPSTEIN: James Paterson is now part of the leadership group around Sussan Ley, the Opposition Leader. He's part of the Shadow Cabinet. 1300 222 774 is the phone number. At the risk of trying to turn you into a commentator, James Paterson, the Resolve poll in the nine papers has One Nation ahead of the Greens, 12% to 11%. Which party worries you more as the third force in Australian politics?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, the Liberal Party is a party that aspires to win and hold government. Our primary competitor in doing that is the Labor Party. That doesn't mean that there aren't other political parties that want to go after our votes, but our primary contest is winning seats in the lower house from the other party of government. And that's where I think the overwhelming focus of our party needs to be.
RAF EPSTEIN: You don't want to say who worries you more, out of One Nation and the Greens?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: No, because that's not how I think about it. I mean, they are parties that do not aspire to win and hold government. They make no claim that they are trying to govern for Australia. They are parties on the fringes of the political system, and no disrespect to them, that cater to those audiences, and they can adopt positions for that. We are not like that. We aspire to govern for all Australians to implement policies in the national interest that make our country stronger and better. And our primary competitor in that is the Labor Party.
RAF EPSTEIN: You're very quick to talk about the danger of the Greens. I'm a bit older than you. I strongly remember John Howard being very quick to condemn One Nation. He did that a lot in the late 90s when One Nation was really rising. Why is the Liberal Party not taking the same approach now?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: I'm not sure you could interpret from my comments that I'm very quick to condemn the Greens. I mean, the substance of my answer to your previous question was that we should be focused on our main political opponent.
RAF EPSTEIN: I did mean previously, but yeah, sure.
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Yeah, I disagree with the Greens. They have a completely different political philosophy from me. And I think the way they behaved in relation to the antisemitism crisis in this country over the last two years has been shameful. I think they have amped up that debate in a way that's been reckless and irresponsible. And it's been of great distress to the Jewish community, who I spent time with as recently as Saturday night and who reiterated that view to me. So we have nothing in common with the Greens, but I didn't join One Nation either. I'm not here to represent One Nation; they are our political opponents as well. And I think the Liberal Party is a mainstream, centre-right political party that can govern for all Australians. I have no interest in encouraging people to vote for any other party, including One Nation.
RAF EPSTEIN: It does look like the Prime Minister's going to end up meeting the U.S. President Donald Trump soon, either in New York or maybe in Britain. How much does that matter? Isn't all the groundwork done in other meetings?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: It's very important with this administration. In a more conventional, traditional administration, Republican or Democrat, it's certainly true that most of the diplomatic legwork happens between ambassadors and ministers and bureaucrats and that the meeting between the leaders is just the final symbolic event to sign off on it. But in this administration, the President is uniquely influential. His personal view, which can change from time to time, is enormously consequential in what the policies of this administration are. So there's no way that we can have a strong diplomatic relationship without the relationship at the leader level, which previous Prime Ministers in Australia, including Malcolm Turnbull and Scott Morrison, who dealt with President Trump, understood and managed very effectively. So I hope you're right. I hope that meeting is coming. But it's now almost 300 days since the president was elected. And this is an unusually long period of time before a meeting has been held.
RAF EPSTEIN: Thanks for your time this morning. I really appreciate it.
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Thanks, Raf.
ENDS