Media
|
Transcripts
September 17, 2025
ALI MOORE: The question is whether you think we are too dependent on government welfare and subsidies. The Federal Opposition has committed to audit government spending to test every dollar, in the words of the opposition leader, Sussan Ley. Here she is.
[CLIP START]
HON SUSSAN LEY MP: Universal free everything might sound nice, but in reality, it drains resources from those who need help most. We need to ask tough questions because every dollar spent on those who can manage without it is a dollar denied to someone who genuinely can't.
[CLIP END]
ALI MOORE: And Sussan Ley says the government cannot and should not shield everyone from every cost of living pressure by writing a cheque. Of course, at the same time, the Opposition Leader is under pressure with unrest in the ranks over climate targets. Senator James Paterson is the Shadow Finance Minister. Senator Paterson, welcome to Drive.
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Thank you for having me.
ALI MOORE: The audit of every dollar, where are the excesses, do you think?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, Sussan has given one example today, which I think is a really powerful one. The Albanese government introduced an incentive for people to buy electric vehicles, and it allows them to deduct a portion of their income from the cost of that vehicle. And it was supposed to cost the budget about $50 million a year, but instead it's cost the budget 10 times that much at half a billion dollars a year. An extraordinary blowout that is not well targeted - it is going to people potentially on quite high incomes. And which has a cost of abatement per ton of carbon emissions saved of about $20,000, when you can buy a ton of carbon abatement for about $35. So it's examples like that that we think need to be identified and removed to get the budget back into a sustainable position.
ALI MOORE: In the context of the budget, though, half a billion dollars is really small bickies, isn't it?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, half a billion dollars a year. So of the four year forward estimates, that's about $2 billion. That's a pretty big hit to the budget. And you only need a few examples like that and you do start to get the budget in a much better position.
ALI MOORE: The point that the leader, Sussan Ley, was making today is that no one should be protected, I guess, or shielded from the cost of living, and no government should shield people from the cost of living by writing a cheque. So that's not really the electric vehicle subsidy, is it? What else are we talking about?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation there, because Susan was also very clear in her speech that we would not touch the safety net, which is highly valued by Australians. I mean, the whole purpose of getting the budget into a sustainable place is so that you can ensure you can provide essential services and a safety net for people who genuinely can't help themselves. But I think we also have to look at areas of the budget that aren't means-tested, that do go to high-income people. For example, the Prime Minister has talked about possibly moving to a universal childcare subsidy, where you could be earning a million dollars a year, and the government would still pay the cost of your childcare. Now that might be a nice thing to have, but with a budget that's already in structural deficit, adding tens of billions of dollars of more spending on top of that through an issue like that, we don't think it is justified in this environment.
ALI MOORE: Do you have in your head where you would cut something like that off, where the cap would be?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, right now, the means testing cuts off at about half a million dollars a year, which is a very high income. We haven't made any policy decisions about any of these things, but we think the principle here is a really important one. People who can afford to pay for their own services should pay for their own services, and the government should pay for people who genuinely can't afford to pay.
ALI MOORE: What else is in that category? Because I know Sussan Ley talked about targeted versus universal welfare. So universal, you've talked about childcare there. What else would go into that universal category?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, we're not going to nominate right now at the start of this parliamentary term, all of the areas of possible savings, because there's going to be at least two, possibly three budgets between now and the next election, where decisions will be made that will have consequences for us to respond to. So that's why we're giving you some of those examples early on, but I can't give you the full list today.
ALI MOORE: Is that not, though, running the risk of exactly what happened in the last election with your vow to cut 40,000 jobs in the public sector, but you wouldn't say where? So in other words, you sort of say, we're going to wind this back. Isn't there a real risk of scaring people because you make the commitment without the detail?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, we're being upfront and honest about what we can and can't say and when we can answer those questions. Because if I, for example, offered you a saving from the budget today and the government removed it from their own budget in the next year, then I can no longer take that saving to the next election. So it's not responsible budget management. We have to deal with the circumstances in the times we are when we find them. But well before the election, we'll be upfront, and honest, and transparent with the Australian people about any savings that we think we're going to need to find.
ALI MOORE: Do you think most Australians think we are too dependent on government welfare and subsidies?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Even the Treasurer, in an unguarded moment, has admitted that we have an unsustainable budget on his watch, and that's because the government baked in a lot of structural spending in their first term, but proposed no way to pay for that spending. And that's why there's now a decade of deficits and $1.2 trillion of debt forecast in the government's own budget papers. So I think Australians do want governments to live within their means, and they do accept that the government can't do everything for them. We've just got to find where the best line to draw that is so we can have sustainable fiscal settings and not pass on an intergenerational debt burden.
ALI MOORE: James Paterson, where do you sit on net zero?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: I am a member of the Shadow Cabinet and the leadership group. I have an opportunity to have my say through the party's internal processes about where we land on that issue, so I'm not canvassing my views publicly.
ALI MOORE: That's not stopping many of your colleagues.
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, and I don't give them advice through the media; they're entitled to conduct themselves how they like. What I can say is though, is that there is a high degree of unanimity within the Coalition that we do have an obligation to reduce emissions. Every Liberal leader since John Howard has accepted that obligation, but we have to make sure it's done in a way that doesn't have an unacceptably high cost. And we do think at the moment that the government is doing it at an unacceptably high cost, and Australians are dealing with the consequence of that with higher electricity prices and Australia becoming less competitive internationally.
ALI MOORE: So I take it from that that you agree with your colleague, Senator Jonathan Duniam, who has said that if we said net zero by any cost by 2050, there'd be a mass exodus from the party?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, Jonathan Duniam has said the same thing that Sussan has said on that, which is that, of course, we're not signing up to net zero at any cost. Of course, presumably even for the government, there's a price they would not be willing to pay to achieve net zero. It has to be done in an affordable way. And it's not at the moment. It's not even achieving the emissions reductions at the moment. There were bigger emission reductions under the Abbott government, the Turnbull government and the Morrison government than there were under the Albanese government in its first term.
ALI MOORE: You're listening to Senator James Paterson, who's the Shadow Minister for Finance. James Paterson, just on that, though, you were signed up to net zero by 2050 prior to the last election. Did that come with a rider that, you know, net zero by 2050, but only if it didn't cost more than X?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, I think all Australians would want to see Australia play our role in reducing emissions. And I stand with them on that. But all Australians will also say that if it drives up electricity costs too much, if it drives jobs away too much, then that would not be a price that they're willing to pay. I think everyone would make a rational choice on that.
ALI MOORE: But how do you bake that into a policy is my question. I mean, if you're going to say we are committed to net zero by 2050, but only if it doesn't cost too much. Too much is a very subjective assessment. Do you have to sort of put some parameters around it in dollar terms?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, it's a very fair question, Ali, but I mean, the government hasn't said how much this is going to cost. And I think that is reckless and irresponsible. But what we are seeing is Australians are experiencing the consequences right now of those costs. Really significant increases in electricity prices, which they're partly being shielded from by energy subsidies from the government. But I presume that Jim Chalmers doesn't plan to pay everyone's electricity bill forever. And so Australians are going to be hit with that bill at some point. I think there will be a backlash at that point. And we do need to manage this transition responsibly.
ALI MOORE: But just to go back to that question, I'm not asking how you would frame it, what the number would be, but if you do commit to net zero, when you finish your policy review, will it come with a qualification?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: You're asking me to speculate on a policy we've not yet agreed to, and I'm trying to be as helpful as I can, but I can't canvas a policy we've not yet agreed to on behalf of a colleague in a different shadow portfolio.
ALI MOORE: James Paterson, has your leader got the party's support?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Yes, my assessment is Sussan has the very strong and overwhelming support of the party room.
ALI MOORE: And Jacinta Nampijinpa Price, how long do you think until she can come back to the front bench?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Jacinta is a friend of mine and someone I think who has got a great political contribution to make. She'll do that for the time being on the backbench, but I hope in the future that she can be part of a shadow frontbench again, because I think she does have a unique ability to reach Australians, which we should be deploying.
ALI MOORE: But needs a bit more experience?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, look, I don't want to provide advice for Jacinta through the media or any of my other colleagues. I think she demonstrated in The Voice what a powerful advocate she can be, and she is really respected by her colleagues, but when you fail to support the leader, as Jacinta did last week, it's not tenable to remain on the frontbench, and she accepts that, and we all accept that critical convention in a Westminster system.
ALI MOORE: Senator James Paterson, I very much appreciate you joining Drive. Thank you.
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: My pleasure, thank you.
ENDS