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Transcripts
September 22, 2026
MICHAEL MCLAREN: Senator James Paterson, of course, is against the move. We've spoken before. He's with me. Good to speak again, James. Thank you for your time.
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Thank you for having me, Michael, but very disappointing news today.
MCLAREN: It is. You know, I just had a slight bit of expectation, maybe it was clearly misplaced, that following the back down recently by the government to do with the allied health services issue, that they might make a carve out for just a select few of these defence sites as well. And top of the list, Victoria Barracks Sydney, for all the unique nature about it that we just have touched on in previous conversations. But clearly I was wrong, I'm mistaken. Richard Marles is determined to trash the history here and just push ahead.
PATERSON: Well, I'm not giving up, and I'm determined to keep fighting this because I think it's wrong. And while ever it hasn't yet been sold, I think there's still hope. And I think the back down on the allied health cap is instructive. They said for months that they were not changing course on that. They said, for months, they would not back down, and eventually the pressure got too much, and they did decide to back down. And I'm still hopeful that we can achieve the same here for Victoria Barrick Sydney, and many other historic and significant sites around Australia. My petition now has 87,000 signatures. Every time I come on your program it just keeps growing. Australians are outraged by this, and we're going to keep fighting for them.
MCLAREN: I mean, I've had veterans today say they'll join me, we'll all head down, you know, we will do an OB, whatever it takes, they'll wear their medals, they will chain themselves to the gate. I mean, people don't say that lightly. People, this has touched people, and even, as you know, people that have no connection directly to the military through service or fathers and mothers that serve, but they are residents of Sydney, they are citizens of Australia, and they say we just can't allow this to happen. I mean, yeah, what next? They'll sell Kirribilli House, they'll flog off Government House, everything's up for sale if we can't balance the books on this logic.
PATERSON: I think anyone with any appreciation for our history would understand how priceless these sites are and how reckless it would be to build a tower of apartments on top of a parade ground where for hundreds of years our soldiers have marched. And anyone who understands our strategic circumstances and how important these bases are likely to be in the future, if there is conflict, how we will rely on them to mobilise and train and deliver military capability, understands how reckless this is. So the Senate last week spoke loud and clear, my colleague Jess Collins delivered a report across party lines, not just the Coalition and the Liberal Party but the Greens as well, who said to the government: you've got to stop this sale and rethink it. And the government hasn't even bothered responding to that report yet, before Richard Marles made these comments today that he wants Army out of VBS and everywhere else around the country too.
MCLAREN: Yes, all right, get the heave-ho out you go. But they don't have a plan, according to the statement I've got from Defence today, as to where the people are going to go, how many, when, and why. I mean, well, they know the why, because they're being booted out. But Defence said in a statement today that the relocation will only proceed once security, workforce, and operational requirements are met. So I can assume that hasn't been done. They go on to say no final decision has been made about future basing of personnel currently at Victoria Barracks Sydney. Now we believe they're going to Defence Plaza, but, again, judging by this statement from Defence, they haven't had that confirmed. So, I mean, aren't we sort of doing this the wrong way around, even if you were to do it?
PATERSON: That's right. That's exactly why there should be a pause. Why they should not be evicted by Christmas, as Defence has threatened to do, because they have no idea where these people are going to go and whether or not they'll be able to deliver the same capability for the ADF from a different location. And as you and your listeners know well, Defence Plaza is an office tower in the city. That is where maybe you could have bureaucrats working perfectly, efficiently and capably. But military officers who have military capabilities to deliver, including training and medical care and other things, need a defence base to deliver it from. And as we know, Victoria Barracks Sydney has been a critical base for delivering counter-terrorism capability during major international events in the past. And I am yet to see any backup plan or any alternative staging ground for that capability.
MCLAREN: Okay, just before you go, I just want to, and I will play you a little audio from Four Corners last night. I'm sure you're across that brief, but I just want to tie here, Senator, a couple of these, two of these issues we've been speaking about today together, because on the one hand, you've got the government saying, look, yeah, the maintenance of these sites is very expensive, they're not capable of all the modern needs of a defence force in the contemporary age. We'd have to spend a lot of money on cyber security and all these other forms of security to keep the bases active, and so then on the other hand you've got a minister who's in the national security committee, Chris Bowen on Four Corners last night basically brushing off the fact he's driving a Chinese-connected vehicle, no concern about the security implications, no concern about any of that sort of I'll just play for our edification here at the grab from last night.
ANGUS GRIGG: Are you comfortable then that the manufacturer, XPENG, knows, for example, your home address, your real time location, the charge on your battery, whether your alarm is off or on, whether the doors are unlocked, the position of your seat?
THE HON CHRIS BOWEN MP: The point I will make, Angus, is whether a car is electric or not. It doesn't matter what the motor is, right? Car manufacturers do have access to those sorts of information increasingly because every car now is basically connected, every new car. Whether it's an electric car, whether it's made in China, Korea, or the United States, they're connected to the grid.
GRIGG: So you're telling me you're not concerned that a Chinese manufacturer knows very intimate patterns of your life?
BOWEN: I mean, most constituents of mine know where I am on most days.
GRIGG: I think you've been a bit dismissive of that. This is granular detail about your life. Well, I'm comfortable with the arrangements.
MCLAREN: It was breathtaking. The man's clearly clueless. So you've got a situation where you've a minister who's in the National Security Committee of Cabinet driving around in a surveillance box on four wheels and yet, you know, his colleagues are saying, oh, we better flog off Victoria Barracks because it's not really up to snuff anymore from a security and a surveillance and a digital point of view. I mean, you can't have it both ways, can you, Senator?
PATERSON: That was an extraordinary and ignorant interview by the Energy Minister. There's a really important distinction on two grounds. Yes, of course, more vehicles are becoming connected these days, but electric vehicles contain more sensors than any other vehicle on the market. And a vehicle made in the People's Republic of China, where its software updates come from, where its diagnostics occur, is subject to the national security laws of the People's Republic of China, and that includes cooperating with intelligence agencies. So if you're driving a listening device and surveillance camera on wheels, then you are sharing an awful amount of information potentially with a foreign authoritarian government. It's incredibly reckless and totally at odds with what they're saying about Victoria Barracks Sydney. I guarantee you, Victoria Barracks Sydney is more secure than Chris Bowen's EV.
MCLAREN: Yeah, I would imagine that an XPENG, yeah, certainly from an Australian government point of view, now look, I mean, a nasty person might say, well look, even if the Chinese did tap his vehicle, there'd be no intelligence to harvest, but irrespective of that point of view, the fact that this guy is on the National Security Committee of Cabinet, and that's a Labor decision, we've never had an Energy or an Environment Minister on there before in that capacity, to my knowledge, I don't know what he's doing there, but he's there. And we're being told he's privately getting around in a XPENG, and you know he's been told well look just be careful what you say in the car you know and you've got the trade minister getting around and he's BYD Shark ute, it's a great car, yeah, sure, but again, just be careful what you say in the car, Don. I mean, why are we taking the risk? I mean, these guys on big money they could buy a bloody Land Rover or a Jag, if they want to, that's an EV, why by the Chinese vehicle?
PATERSON: Well, that's right. And they could buy an EV from another jurisdiction that's a more friendly democracy like Japan, or Korea, or Europe, and they could achieve their emissions reductions goals and still provide a more secure environment for Australians. I mean, foreign intelligence agencies have a voracious appetite for intelligence and not only for classified intelligence, but political insight and gossip and interest.
MCLAREN: We'd do it too. I mean, if we were making these things and selling them, we'd do it too, I mean, let's not be naive, right? We don't make cars, but if we did and we were selling them to you know the Politburo in Beijing, we'd be listening in if we could.
PATERSON: And all you need to know about that is that the PRC bans the same type of vehicles from around their sensitive military facilities and bases. And I guarantee you, Xi Jinping never drives around in an American-made or designed electric vehicle.
MCLAREN: I bet his energy minister doesn't either.
PATERSON: No, indeed.
MCLAREN: Alright, well, we'll keep talking. We'll keep fighting about Victoria Barracks. I appreciate your support, and well done. What is it, 80-odd thousand signatures now? Where do people go if they haven't signed it?
PATERSON: Senatorpaterson.com.au, add your voice and join 87,000 fellow Australians and tell the government to stop this reckless sale.
MCLAREN: They can't be wrong. Great to speak. Thanks, James.
PATERSON: Thanks, Michael.
ENDS