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October 6, 2025
SALLY SARA: Well, the resignation of West Australian Liberal MP Andrew Hastie from the opposition frontbench opens up yet another wound for the Coalition as Parliament resumes this week. So, what does it mean for the Opposition Leader Sussan Ley? James Paterson is now the acting Shadow Minister for Home Affairs. He's also the Shadow Minister for Finance and joins me now. Senator, welcome back to Radio National Breakfast.
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Good morning, Sally.
SALLY SARA: Andrew Hastie: has he made a good decision here to step away from the opposition frontbench, in your view?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, I'm sorry that we're losing Andrew from the front bench because I think he's a key contributor to our team and someone with great capacity. But I think it's done the right thing, and the honourable thing, because he could not agree with the approach under Sussan Ley, and when you respect the Westminster conventions, as Andrew does, as I do, then the only responsible thing is to step down from the frontbench.
SALLY SARA: The approach of the Opposition Leader Sussan Ley, was it the right approach? Was it a fair approach that was taken to Andrew Hastie?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Look, I haven't seen the charter letter that Andrew Hastie received, and I don't know the details of the arrangements that she proposed, and so I'm not in a position to adjudicate that or commentate on that. But I think Andrew's been upfront and honest about his motivations. This isn't about the leadership. This is about his fundamental convictions on issues of policy and his desire to pursue those from the backbench, as he said, to give clear air to the Leader and the Shadow Ministry so we can get on with our business of developing policy and holding the government to account.
SALLY SARA: Was it a reasonable expectation on Andrew Hastie's part to lead policy reform in the area particularly of immigration?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Sally I don't want to be unhelpful, but it is really difficult for me to comment on that without knowing exactly what the charter letter set out and what was in it and what wasn't and how it described his role. Certainly, it's the case that a senior Shadow Minister in a portfolio should be involved in all aspects of policy in the portfolio, but I can't judge whether that was the case or not.
SALLY SARA: The Sydney Morning Herald is reporting that Peter Dutton has made a submission to the Liberal election campaign review. It is highly critical of Andrew Hastie. What's your knowledge of this contribution from Peter Dutton?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, I haven't seen that submission and it hasn't been publicly released. It's in a report which hasn't yet been completed and judging by the article this morning I'm not sure the reporter themselves has even read the submission. It sounds like it's just been described to them by a third party. So, it's very difficult to commentate on it. What I can say is I don't agree with the characterisation of Andrew's contribution. He was a key voice in our national security and defence team, which was one of the strongest areas that we put forward during the last term, and I don't agree that he was in any way responsible for our election loss. We have to accept collective responsibility for our election loss. We all contributed to that, and Peter Dutton has taken public responsibility for that, as have I.
SALLY SARA: To your knowledge, was a submission requested from Peter Dutton or is this something that the review has simply received from him?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: I have no knowledge of that, except that it would be normal for a review process to engage with the former Leader of the Opposition. What I would say is if there are any current members of the parliamentary party or their staff who are playing games with an important process like this for internal positioning or advancement, then I think that will end very badly.
SALLY SARA: What do you mean by that?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, I mean that we have to have a review that can look at the last election result holistically and in a way that has confidence and trust in the party and that when it is handed down we can implement the recommendations and get on with our business. Leaks from a process like that undermine trust in that process.
SALLY SARA: Do you know who leaked it?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: I have no idea.
SALLY SARA: Two frontbenchers now - Andrew Hastie and Senator Jacinta Nampajimpa Price - have quit Sussan Ley's Shadow Ministry. Does that suggest to you that the leader may be struggling to keep the party united at the moment?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Sally, my honest assessment is anyone who is leading the Liberal Party at this moment would be having a very difficult task on their hands. We have just come off the worst loss in eighty years of the history of the Liberal Party and necessarily we're going through a period of introspection and debate, and part of that has to be public. So, whether it was Sussan Ley or anyone else it was going to be a difficult time. I think she's taken the right approach by putting in place the processes now to get the big policy choices right throughout this term so that by the time we get to the next election we have a compelling offering that can withstand public scrutiny and inspire Australians to vote Liberal.
SALLY SARA: Is it inevitable in your view that Sussan Ley will face a challenge in this term?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: No, I don't think it is, and my assessment is she has the overwhelming and strong support of the party room.
SALLY SARA: How do you see the timing and the issue of responsibility with those who were senior and were playing significant roles in the previous election campaign? Is it too soon for them to come back? I'm thinking about names like perhaps Jane Hume coming back to the shadow frontbench.
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: That's strictly a matter for the Leader, and I never commentate on colleagues or reshuffles. It's really up to the Leader to decide who the best team is to make a contribution.
SALLY SARA: What does it say to you about what's happening in the Liberal Party that its first female leader has been facing significant challenges from within almost since day one?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: I don't think the challenges that the Liberal Party or Sussan are facing now have anything to do with her gender. I think they have everything to do with the circumstances we find ourselves in. We've been reduced to the worst position in the House of Representatives ever in the Liberal Party's history, and the election loss - although some might have anticipated it - certainly was far worse than any of us would have expected it, and that has induced a bit of shock in our party and our movement. And we're now having a big and appropriate debate about our future direction. What I have said though is that debate can't go on forever. It has a time limit. Well into this term we have to demonstrate that we are focused on the Australian people and not ourselves.
SALLY SARA: Some of the opinion polls, including another one today, have been showing continued support for Labor, but also showing significant growth in support for One Nation. What's your read of that?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: I think it's also normal and natural after a big election defeat for the supporters of our party to question our role, and we have to re-earn their trust and support, just as we also have to re-earn the trust and support of the swinging voters as well. It's not an either/or proposition. We have to demonstrate to our core supporters that we are the Liberal Party that they know and trust, and that we will uphold the values that they believe in, and we'll have to demonstrate to the rest of Australians that we are up to date with contemporary concerns and issues and that we have answers to the problems that face their lives.
SALLY SARA: Are you now in charge of formulating the Coalition's policies on immigration?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: I will be an interim Shadow Home Affairs Minister for a short period of time until a substantive person is in place.
SALLY SARA: How long do you expect that period to be?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: That's really a matter for the Leader.
SALLY SARA: Is immigration, in your view, too high at the moment?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Yes, it unquestionably is too high. When you bring more than a million people into our country over just a couple of years, but we've built nowhere near that many houses to house them and other Australians who need a home, that is understandably going to produce concerns among Australians, as well as the strain that it puts on infrastructure and services. It should be brought down to much more sustainable levels, and I have zero confidence this government will achieve that because they have missed every target they've set for themselves since they've been in office.
SALLY SARA: Are you prepared to put a number on what you think the migrant intake should be?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: No, not today. We've got to go through a proper policy process and unilaterally announcing a number as an acting Shadow Minister wouldn't be conducive to that.
SALLY SARA: You're listening to Radio National Breakfast and you're hearing from the Shadow Minister for Finance and the Acting Shadow Minister for Home Affairs, Senator James Paterson. On a separate and specific issue, Senator, a small group of Australian women and children who traveled, or were taken to Syria as partners of Islamic State members, a small group have now returned home; are you satisfied with the information provided by the government on this matter?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Not at all, and Tony Burke, the Minister for Home Affairs, needs to come out of hiding and address the public and the media with some basic facts about this process to explain to Australians what has happened here, how did these people come to come home to Australia? Are any of them facing any counter-terrorism charges for their involvement with Islamic State? How will that be monitored? Where will they live? What involvement did the government have in bringing them home? None of these have been answered and it's simply not good enough for the Minister of Home Affairs to refuse to answer about that.
SALLY SARA: Do these Australian citizens have the right to return home, in your view?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Yes, they do, but the government has been given powers by the Parliament to temporarily exclude the return of Australian citizens if they've been associated with terrorism. The reason why we gave the government the power to do that is to protect Australians from the risk of Australians who've gone overseas to assist terrorist organisations, as these people may have done without being aware of their individual circumstances. So if the government hasn't used those powers, then they should explain why not.
SALLY SARA: Senator, I appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Thank you.
ENDS