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Transcripts
December 8, 2025
MARK LEVY: I had my say on the Anika Wells and this travel controversy that the facts are simple. She spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on travel, all of which has somehow been within the guidelines. And it seems absurd that this travel, including taking a family to Thredbo for a ski weekend that aligned with some of her work, can pass those rules if it doesn't pass the pub test. When these rules were made, community expectations clearly were not a consideration. And it means that the taxpayer is spending big on what sounds like a pretty lavish lifestyle. We've seen this trip to New York, the spending in Paris, the birthday party in Adelaide, the Formula One weekend, and now the Thredbo trip all make headlines, and they've done so because of just how much these trips have cost. Yet the Prime Minister was on the Insider's program yesterday defending his Minister.
[CLIP START]
DAVID SPEERS: You or your office would have had to approve that, is that right? Did you?
PRIME MINISTER ANTHONY ALBANESE: Of course.
DAVID SPEERS: So you did approve this?
PRIME MINISTER ANTHONY ALBANESE: Of course.
DAVID SPEERS: You thought thirty-four grand for a flight was ok?
PRIME MINISTER ANTHONY ALBANESE: We spoke, I didn't get all the receipts, David. This will come as a shock, David, but I don't, you know, ring up and make bookings myself.
DAVID SPEERS: You or your office has to approve that flight cost.
PRIME MINISTER ANTHONY ALBANESE: Of course, of course.
[CLIP END]
MARK LEVY: There the Prime Minister on the ABC yesterday. Well, I thought we'd check in with James Paterson, who's the Shadow Minister for Finance, for Government Services and for the Public Service. He's on the line with me now. Senator Paterson, good morning to you.
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Good to be with you, Mark.
MARK LEVY: Well, mate, it is a big week for the Minister, but she is embroiled in this controversy. What are your thoughts, mate? Does it pass the pub test?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, there was one thing I disagreed with you in your opening comments, there, Mark, which is that community expectations are actually built into the rules both for parliamentarians and equally importantly into the ministerial code of conduct. In fact, it's explicitly written in there that ministers must spend money in a way that meets community expectations. And clearly Anika Wells has failed to do so. I think she's failed the pub test, but fundamentally, also she failed the kitchen table test when there are families sitting around the kitchen table contemplating their latest electricity bill, wondering whether they're going to be able to put on the air conditioning this summer or if they're going to be sweltering in the heat. And they've learned that there is a minister spending hundreds of thousands of taxpayer dollars living it up well.
MARK LEVY: James, just take me back a step, right? And you know, we will run through all of the finer details in this in just a sec. But when it comes to the rules and how this all works, I reckon there'll be people across Australia that are genuinely interested to know how this works. So if James Paterson is, for instance, going to the United Nations to go and spruik an announcement that is being made in Australia, how does it work? How does it happen? Who approves it? Who fills out the paperwork and who hands in the receipts? Can you run me through that if you can?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Absolutely. So if I'm a minister, I'm not a minister, but if I was then two people have to approve that expenditure. I have to personally approve it. I have to be told what the cost is, and I have to approve it, and the Prime Minister or his delegate within his office has to approve it. And once it is approved, it's then booked by an independent travel agency on our behalf and it's paid for by taxpayers through that way. So there are two checks in the system there. If I'm a minister and my staff tells me, look, actually, Minister, it's going to cost you thirty thousand dollars to get to New York and back just for one ticket, then I should say, is there another route we can take? Is there another day we could travel? Maybe we should travel premium economy, not business. Or economy, God forbid. And if I don't have that good judgement to check that myself, then the Prime Minister or his office should check that and say, hang on, this is just too much money, we can't justify it publicly.
MARK LEVY: You're an intelligent bloke, Senator. I just want to go to this New York trip, right? The UN General Assembly, where she was spruiking the social media ban. So the Minister and two staffers, the airfares cost $94,800,29. Are there rules around where you can fly, whether it's in business, whether it's premium economy, because that's a lot of money for three return airfares?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Ministers and their staff are entitled to travel business class, but not first class. And the reason why they're allowed to travel business class is sometimes they have to get off the plane and work straight away. They don't have a couple of days to adjust to the time zone. I think that's fair enough as long as the business class prices are reasonable. And maybe if you're booking at very short notice and you're flying into New York City in General Assembly week, it's going to be a lot more. And if that's the case, I think you've got to think about it. Is it really worth it for a six and a half minute speech? Which is what Anika Wells delivered. Is there no other day I can travel? Could I slum it in premium economy or economy just on this one occasion? Really I think she could have, but didn't want to.
MARK LEVY: But I'll tell you where I've got a problem with the whole UN General Assembly. Correct me if I'm wrong, the Prime Minister was there, right? So the total taxpayer bill for Anika Wills was $189,372. So that takes in airfares. There was an event at the cost of $69,456, accommodation $18,129, ground transport, meals and incidentals. Why do we need a minister at the UN to spruik the social media ban when we've got her boss, the Prime Minister, there in the first place?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, you're exactly right, Mark. And we've also got an ambassador there as well, who represents Australia at the United Nations and speaks at events almost every day on our behalf. We have a whole embassy there full of staff who do that for us and are paid well to do that job. Having a minister, really, frankly, is a pretty marginal benefit, particularly as you say when the Prime Minister's there. But this is a bit of a habit of Anthony Albanese. When he goes to the United Nations, he takes quite an entourage with him. He often takes Penny Wong, the Foreign Minister. That's fair enough, that's her job. But he's also recently been taking people like Chris Bowen, the Energy Minister, to come and spruik our climate policies as well. And now we know Anika Wells as well. Is it really necessary to have such a big entourage on these things? I doubt it.
MARK LEVY: What should happen here, James? I mean, we touched on the fact that there was the Thredbo trip and Anika Wells said yesterday on Sky that yes, her family was skiing, that the hubby got along to a couple of cricket matches, including two Boxing Day tests. There's the Formula One, there is the three days in Adelaide, which just so happened to coincide with a friend's birthday party. What should happen here with Anika Wells? Is it enough for her to fall on her sword, or what do you think?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, the bare minimum now is that this should be referred for an independent investigation. It could go to the Independent Parliamentary Expenses Authority, which is in charge of all of our expenses. Or frankly, because she's a minister, I think there should be an inquiry as to whether she has upheld the Ministerial Code of Conduct, which is an even higher burden, as it should be. It's extraordinary that the Minister and the Prime Minister are just claiming, just asserting that everything was within the guidelines. But we don't actually know that that's the case because no one has independently reviewed it. They're just claiming that it's consistent with the guidelines. So I think that's the bare minimum, and then we can judge what comes back in that investigation.
MARK LEVY: Well, it's interesting when you look at precedents. I ran the listeners through James off the top of the show, a couple of issues in the past. And let's take, for instance, to now, Home Affairs Minister, Tony Burke. He repaid more than $8,600 of taxpayer money spent on flying his family to Uluru for a holiday in 2012. When first asked about it, he said the trip was, quote, 'beyond community expectations.' Wonder how Mr Burke feels about this, although we haven't been able to get a straight answer out of him over the meetings around ISIS Bride since last week. So what hope have we got of getting some straight answers out of the government on that as well?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, as you know, Mark, I'm not someone who praises Tony Burke often, but at least in this instance, he did the right thing there. And what he did at Uluru is exactly what Anika Wells and her family did at Thredbo. He took his family while he was on Ministerial business for what was effectively a taxpayer funded family holiday. She's done the same. And when it was exposed, he eventually recognised that it was beyond community expectations, that it failed the pub test, and he paid it back. And I think she should at least consider doing the same, and there's no evidence that she's done so.
MARK LEVY: All right, that's Anika Wells. While I've got you, Senator, let's touch on a couple of other things. This polling out today in the Sydney Morning Herald, it's not good for the Coalition. Obviously, it's a concern. Does this just promote more rumblings and speculation about Sussan Ley's position as leader?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Mark, what all these polls at the moment are showing is that as a Liberal Party, we've got a lot of work to do. We've got to earn back the trust and support of the community, including some of our traditional supporters, who I think are probably parking their vote with One Nation now as a bit of a protest. They're frustrated how badly we went at the election. They want to see stronger policies from us, and we're in the process of giving that to them. As you and I have discussed before, we've now got a very strong position on net zero and energy. Soon we'll be outlining some principles on immigration that I think will, you know, meet the concerns of the community on that issue. And we've also got to hold this government to account. That's our job as opposition at this point of the cycle, and that's how we earn back their trust and support.
MARK LEVY: What's your personal opinion on the social media ban, Senator? I don't think I've asked you that question. Are you for or against the idea?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: In principle, I think it's a very good thing to get children off social media platforms. They are not safe environments for kids. They're not designed to be safe environments for kids, and I think we do need to get them off those platforms. There's been a lot of serious harm done to young people on those platforms. But I have to say I am concerned with the competence with which Anika Wells and the government is implementing it. You know, there have been platforms that have been in, platforms that have been out, they haven't had a really consistent line or length on this issue, and I'm worried it's going to be a real mess when it comes into force on Wednesday.
MARK LEVY: All right, you know how I discuss all the big issues on this show, James, before you go. Arnott’s has put out its top ten list of biscuits. They've got the Tim Tam on top, which I don't think you'd have a problem with. But would you put the Jatz cracker above the Monte Carlo?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Oh that's a great question. I am quite a fan of a Jatz cracker, I've got to say.
MARK LEVY: Well, mate, you are Jatz crackers, hello.
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Well, Monte Carlo has its place with a cup of tea. but a Jatz cracker with a bit of cheese is just a classic.
MARK LEVY: Good on you, mate. If I don't speak to you beforehand, I probably won't. Merry Christmas to you and to your family, mate, and we'll chat again no doubt in the new year.
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: And to you and your listeners.
ENDS