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May 8, 2025
SARAH FERGUSON: To politics now, and Shadow Minister for Home Affairs, James Paterson, was the campaign spokesperson. It was his job to sell the Coalition's message throughout the campaign. He joins me now from Melbourne. James Paterson, welcome.
JAMES PATERSON: Sarah, it's nice to be with you with the campaign shackles taken off.
SARAH FERGUSON: Well, take them off then. What went wrong?
JAMES PATERSON: A lot of things went wrong. When you have a loss this bad, it's very tempting to point the finger and just attribute it to one thing or the other, but a lot of things were wrong. The polling was wrong, the advertising didn't cut through, the policy agenda didn't inspire Australians, and ultimately, and I think most importantly, we didn't convince Australians that they could change to us, that change would be safe, and that we were ready for government.
SARAH FERGUSON: What about Peter Dutton? Did he enjoy campaigning?
JAMES PATERSON: That's a good question. I don't know any politician who really enjoys campaigning. Some of them probably say that they do, but deep down it's a deeply weird experience to go through, to campaign in an election. I think Peter did enjoy his interactions with the Australian people, and he was very passionate about our country and very proud of our country, and very passionate about its future, and I feel very sad for what is a very good person that we've had this very disappointing result.
SARAH FERGUSON: Let's just talk about some of the policies. How did a policy like Working From Home that so many of the voters you were focused on rely on in their daily lives, how did that become policy?
JAMES PATERSON: The honest answer, Sarah, is I don't really know; it is not always the case that every policy that's taken to an election goes through robust internal party processes. They don't always go through Shadow Cabinet or the Shadow Expenditure Review Committee of Cabinet. Sometimes, depending on how significant they are, they can just be settled between a Shadow Minister and the Leader's office, for example. So I don't know in that instance, because it wasn't my portfolio area, what process that one went through. But obviously, one of the very clear lessons out of this election campaign is our policy processes need to be improved. They need to much more robust. We need to stress test things much earlier and much more robustly before we release them publicly.
SARAH FERGUSON: So, who is responsible for that, in a sense, policy chaos?
JAMES PATERSON: Well, I think we have to take collective responsibility, and it reflects very well on Peter as our leader that he stood up on election night and took that responsibility personally, but it is a collective responsibility. The entire Shadow Cabinet, the entire party room, all of us have to bear that responsibility. I think one of the reflections I've had is that after the last election we prized unity and discipline over all else. And unity and discipline are incredibly important in politics, I wouldn't suggest otherwise. But it's not more important than thrashing issues out properly, than having the proper debates and I think this time we need to make sure we have those debates, in a respectful way within the confines of the Coalition and the Liberal and National parties, but we need settle those big policy issues early and robustly together.
SARAH FERGUSON: So the fact that they were coming so late, that's a big part of the problem.
JAMES PATERSON: I think some of our policies, had they been out earlier, had they been ready earlier, had they been up for public scrutiny earlier, could have been very well received by the public. I think we could have campaigned on them for longer, and they would have earned a lot of support for us. We released a lot of policies in the campaign in a way in which I think it was hard for many voters to keep up. And our research was showing that some of the big announcements we made, voters were not clear that we had announced them or were not clear that they were our policies rather than Labor's policies, particularly when you're talking about busy people who have other things in their lives to worry about than elections. They're not tuning in to the minute detail, and we need to make sure we give them time to digest and hear our policies.
SARAH FERGUSON: Should the nuclear policy stay or go?
JAMES PATERSON: Well, I think the most important thing with this election result, given how comprehensive it was, is that we'd be humble and we accept the verdict of the Australian people and listen to them. And that means all of our policies, including the nuclear policy, must be up for review. I'm someone who's personally argued for nuclear on the public record for about 10 years and I do think it still is part of the solution to the energy problems facing our country. But the form in which we took it to the last election, I think, is going to be very difficult for us to take again to a future election. Simply for practical reasons, our plan was premised on replacing coal-fired power stations as they leave the system with nuclear-powered facilities. Those retirements are going to be happening in the next few years, and undoubtedly other things will happen to those sites. So I think that option is probably not viable anymore. But I think we should keep the door open to nuclear playing a role in the future, because it is still that emissions-free, reliable, proven technology. And I am deeply worried still about our energy transition and whether or not we can complete it successfully.
SARAH FERGUSON: But weren't the flaws in that policy, I'm going to just say, blindingly obvious to you as someone who understands nuclear energy?
JAMES PATERSON: The risks were obvious, and it was a political risk, and I have great admiration for Peter Dutton that he didn't just play it safe in opposition, that he took something that he thought our country needed and he argued for it. He knew full well when we adopted this, we all did, that there was political risk involved. But we believe that it was in the country's national interest. I think leadership demands that you do what you think is in the interest of the country, even if there are political risks involved.
SARAH FERGUSON: How much did the embrace of Trumpian ideas and values hurt your campaign?
JAMES PATERSON: My view is that the Trump effect was the single largest factor that was outside of our control that impacted our campaign. It had a devastating effect on our polling numbers. We peaked around Inauguration Day, and we slid after that, particularly fast after the Zelenskyy meeting and then again after the tariffs. But that's not to exonerate us of political responsibility there. We could have done more to inoculate ourselves against that, to prepare for that, and there were some things that happened in the months in the lead-up to the campaign and campaign itself, that exaggerated the similarities between us and Donald Trump. The truth is, actually, the politics of the centre-right Liberal Party in Australia is quite different to what's happening in the Republican Party in the United States right now, but the government very successfully tied us to them, and it was devastating.
SARAH FERGUSON: But in terms of what you did, is Peter Dutton responsible for not making that distinction clearer?
JAMES PATERSON: I think we're all responsible. I think Peter would accept his share of responsibility. I accept mine. We all have a responsibility to do that. Because the truth is, Donald Trump is a very unconventional centre-right conservative politician. Many of the things that he believes in are not consistent with the Liberal Party's values. Trade is a good example of that. But we also profoundly disagreed with his approach to Ukraine. And we should have anticipated the political risk of being seen to be associated with him earlier and done more to make that clear.
SARAH FERGUSON: One of the people who did make that association clear was then CLP Senator Jacinta Price. She's now joined the Liberal party room. What does that tell us about the direction of the party post the loss?
JAMES PATERSON: Jacinta is an extraordinary political talent. She's endured adversity in her life that most of us never even have to contemplate, myself included, and she's emerged from that stronger and better, and she is an incredible communicator. And any centre-right political movement would be excited to welcome Jacinta into their ranks, and I certainly welcome Jacinta into our ranks. I think you'll get to see Jacinta in a different mould in this new parliament, whatever role she takes up in the Liberal Party. I think she'll broaden her interest in other policy areas, and I think she'll make a really big impact and cut through.
SARAH FERGUSON: But someone who said, let's make Australia great again during that campaign, in the midst of the chaos caused by Donald Trump, why is that someone who should have a dominant role in the Liberal Party, maybe even be deputy leader? Why do you want that?
JAMES PATERSON: Look, I think that was an unfortunate phrase, but it isn't actually a reflection of Jacinta's worldview. She's not arguing for Trump-style politics. She doesn't believe in Trump-style politics. She believes in traditional centre-right Liberal Party values. In fact, I think she always has found her philosophical home in the Liberal Party and the traditions and beliefs of the Liberal Party are very close to her heart. And I think you should give her an opportunity and judge her on how she performs in the Liberal Party, because I think she's got extraordinary talent. I'm looking forward to seeing what she can do.
SARAH FERGUSON: And very quickly, Sussan Ley or Angus Taylor?
JAMES PATERSON: You won't be surprised, I don't want to publicly canvas that, it's the private conversations I'm having with my colleagues. But whoever wins, the Liberal Party must unite behind their leader, resolve these important philosophical and policy issues, and get on with providing the Australian people with the alternative government that they deserve, holding this government to account and taking an agenda to the next election that can excite and inspire them to vote Liberal again.
SARAH FERGUSON: James Paterson, thank you very much indeed for joining us.
ENDS